yer welcome [img]smile.gif[/img]
ah good to see my memory isn't completely crap LOL But i understand the distinction you are making.
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yer welcome [img]smile.gif[/img]
ah good to see my memory isn't completely crap LOL But i understand the distinction you are making.
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Awww thanks Sharon [img]redface.gif[/img] That's really nice of you to say.Quote:
Originally posted by Laurina:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, this cloud that looks like a bunny says hoorah to you two as moderators because you're bloody good at it!
I think understanding is a 2 way street. For every person who wants to share that they aren't happy with something that was said or done, there are going to be people who are happy; and both sides have to understand one another. People don't have to agree, but it would be nice to see some more understanding.
All I am really saying is that it would be good to see more acceptance that every type of fan is welcome and just because people don't agree does not mean they can't speak out in regards to how they feel.
Honestly... this whole thing has tired me to the point of where I am miserable and feeling like I just don't give a f*** any longer. Sad when that happens because I used to get such joy from this fanbase.
<font color="#9966FF"><font size="1">[ February 28, 2005 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Laurina ]</font></font></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I feel both mods are fair and willing to let a discussion run to its natural conclusion, despite whether the topic hits contraversy or not, and to my mind you don't tend to INTERFERE in a situation either unless it is entirely necessary...yes, you lend your opinions to any discussion you're interested in, and yet I don't feel like we're being judged by you just because you're in a position of moderator. I'm grateful for that (I think that is also very true of this place too).
And I think Laurie will understand the reasons why right now I feel terribly jaded and fed-up too. But I do get where you're coming from, that all fans should be able to enjoy their fandom on whatever level they choose, because we are all different. I also believe that if you question something it's not necessarily because you don't have faith in something, it's just that sometimes you need to ask your questions in order to see a way through. I know that I've certainly done that now, and I have to say that as much as I am despondent in some ways, I only have to stick a song like Affirmation or C&B, Insatiable or Darkness onto my CD player to know what it is all about for me. Not what others may or may not perceive me to be, but the person I know I am. The music is magic, my memories are magic, and I'm very happy that I've managed to find some great people along the way.
[img]smile.gif[/img] I'd also like to apologise if anything I have ever said has been too forthright or has offended anyone just because I believe in the music, and yes the man, still. It was never my intention.
Sharon
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 01, 2005 05:23 AM: Message edited by: sharonlk ]</font>
I'd just like to say that I was guilty of giving Dyan a pretty hard time when she was a mod and that's probably down to the points that she herself raised. I guess we just clashed...
In my <u>honest</u> opinion, there have only ever been 2 really effective and objective mods on the Sony bbs and those are the 2 that we have at present. That's not meant to be a suck-up in any way but that's geuninely how I feel. In my book, Carla was extremely overrated and Ema completely ineffectual. I won't bother to comment re what I thought about maggz's modding skills, suffice to say that I wasn't very impressed.
"The whole vibe from the PTB etc etc after the breakup was if you werent 100% supportive of Darren and his actions there was somehow something wrong with you. Many other fans seem to help perpetuate this as well. Many were great about it all too and for those fans I do thank them."
Interesting that was how you saw things.
I guess I would have said that was the vibe from a contingent of fans but I wouldn't have said it was the vibe of the ptb (and I hate that term too). My memory of those days was a message from Darren with his side of the story. I would have said the vibe from the message from Darren, from Leonie and from Carla was more of a plea for understanding, for peace in a very riled up board...some being pissed at Darren and some being pissed at other fans.
But I am a lot like Laurie in my viewpoint...I think most of the vibe of every place comes from the fans and very little actually comes from Darren and company.
Awwww thank you Sharon [img]redface.gif[/img] heh heh. I'm glad to hear we pass muster because i trust you lot to call us on it if we start going mad with power [img]wink.gif[/img]
I agree Laurie that there is nothing wrong with believing yourself that everything Darren does is good, or supporting him %100 (i might argue that's not realistic but whatever floats yer boat LOL) or being positive yourself all the time. This is the collective you/yourself incidently *chuckle* We just have to make sure don't make the jump from "i feel this way" to "people should feel this way" or "only fans feel this way" heh heh As you said, acceptance is the key. Diversity is the spice of life [img]wink.gif[/img]
I agree that Dyan's dismissal was cold and remains cold, unfair to her in context of all the work she did and it was a sharp wakeup call at the time as to how little we can really matter when Sony/Darren's group/whoever decides it's nessesary to be expedient. It doesn't mean we are always or normally viewed that superficially but it is disturbing to know that they have no qualms about demoting someone without proper explanation or concern over the community reaction to such quick actions. None of us probably enjoy being reminded that, in many ways, at the end of the day we are just numbers to be shuffled around, we are a demographic to be appeased as long as we keep shelling out money. Dehumanizing, whee!
Dyan, maybe you weren't the best moderator but at least you were out there trying, even with that heavy target on your back which you were aware of with every move you made. It was very brave of you! *comfs* You were very dedicated in trying to solve problems, i remember you talking to other moderators, trying to figure out solutions to problems of the day. And you did do some very smart things, to counter the thought that you only made mistakes, for instance you did some excellent groundwork for the fic board when it was still around and it really came in handy later on when Laurie and i needed to assert the rules in regards to story ratings and appropriateness for the board.
And the lovely thing about hindsight is that it is ever-perfect but never there when we need it. I think context of the board mentality at the time and your history make it seem not so crazy that you were made mod; you had a long history of strong, often unwavering support of Darren and i think that if you had kept up that up the same, the higher powers probably (just a guess) would have turned a deaf ear to complaints about your more controversial posts.
I mean, i know at the FC board, i've heard about various people complaining to the fanclub itself about one or two of the moderators there and some of the actions carried out there were just the same if not more so in the vein of controversial and outspoken. You do have a point that maybe the not meeting you IRL (i thought you had been to a meet'n'greet in the SG days, during the Affa tour?) is what makes the difference and i think you are right that it was your public musings about Spin and such that is what seperates you and why some mods still have positions while you don't *chuckle*
But seriously, how could you have known they were watching or someone was reporting to them and they listened? We have always operated under the idea that no one cares about us on the Sony boards, certainly my inability to get a response from ANYONE lends belief to that idea. Darren himself told us that the boards were ours and we could do what we like as long as we didn't break the rules. You didn't break any rules that we had then or have now, so don't beat yourself up over not being able to be a mindreader or a psychic *huggles*
holy crap this is a long post LOL
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is indeed what Laurie and i strive to do, we really prefer to let people sort themselves out rather than try to play babysitter. Generally i have pretty good faith in the maturity of people so i only get involved if a situation is dragging on or escalating into nastiness. It's also reassuring to hear that when i give my opinions on a subject, it doesn't come across as a "the moderator has spoken" kinda tone because i do enjoy intellectual discussions and it often has nothing to do with the fact i am a moderator lolQuote:
Originally posted by sharonlk:
I feel both mods are fair and willing to let a discussion run to its natural conclusion, despite whether the topic hits contraversy or not, and to my mind you don't tend to INTERFERE in a situation either unless it is entirely necessary...yes, you lend your opinions to any discussion you're interested in, and yet I don't feel like we're being judged by you just because you're in a position of moderator. I'm grateful for that (I think that is also very true of this place too).
[img]smile.gif[/img] I'd also like to apologise if anything I have ever said has been too forthright or has offended anyone just because I believe in the music, and yes the man, still. It was never my intention.
Sharon
<font color="#9966FF"><font size="1">[ March 01, 2005 05:23 AM: Message edited by: sharonlk ]</font></font>[/QB]
you've never offended me with anything you've posted Sharon ^_^
In retrospect... maybe Darren&Co were too involved... but at the time we all knew that and we all loved it.
It isn't true that we didn't know we were being watched. We all knew... certainly Dyan and myself did.
By the time Dyan was made mod things had already changed for the worse so it's probably not a good idea to compare what happened before then to that particular time.
I just think that we really musn't forget the reason we stuck with the community for so long... Darren and Leo were very present and that's what kept everything relatively positive back then. People were watching what they said because they knew *someone* important was looking over their shoulders. I also seem to remember that Dyan once mentioned in a post how Carla had to send certain threads on to Sony.
The "positive" attitude existed then, too - except I don't think many people questioned it because Darren (or those close to him) was so very present and people simply acted the way they would around him in real life.
By the time Dyan was made mod, Darren and Leo weren't around anymore and with the split the general mood had changed.
What, to this day, I can't understand is how the mood changed towards Darren + Leo mentioning fans in messages or conversations. When Caedn was given "special treatment" at a show, when Dyan was given a mention on TV, when Darren or Leo wrote messages in reply to something which had been posted on the bbs, everyone was cheering and the community was buzzing with excitement because *they* were talking about or to "one of us".
That totally changed and when people were later mentioned there was no happiness for "one of the fans" .. only nasty remarks.
I think things had simply gotten out of control after the split. There was so much hate around, accusations ... much of what has been said must have been extremely hurtful.
I guess all of that played a part.
The fans were disappointed, disillusioned and upset and Darren, who I guess was actually looking for support from us, got blamed and accused of all sorts.
I think it was a hard time for both sides... and yes, I believe that back then it was a case of the fans against Darren and I guess that's what lead to the way things were handled... in general.
Not sure any of this made sense *sighs*
Yes, but Nic I think that what was lost was the fact that it never was the fans against Darren. And it saddens me to know that the underlying support and acceptance was somehow lost in all the other noise.
You see, I've been sort of mulling this over all day .......... and while I know what Steen meant in her post, I also feel compelled to say that I never did lose my unwavering support of Darren or of the music. Granted other parts of the picture DID shift, and perhaps that's why the support seemed to shift too. But the same strong support that I demonstrated at previous times never changed or lessened.
I also know the same was true for other fans that I talked with. These are the fans who ended up over at the SG fan board (Steen is one, and I hope she doesn't mind my singling her out), and it probably includes many who post here. The thing is that I didn't chat with Kat or those of you who had similar clashes with me, but I have the strong sense that you and she will likely agree with what I'm about to say.......
Yes, there was a lot of misunderstandings about the split and a lot of hurt and even anger about how it was handled. BUT I also know that there was always a strong core of support for Darren and his music.
If people hadn't cared about Darren, then they wouldn't have been so hurt by how things were handled. I just wish in retrospect that had been better understood by all involved at the time.
But then, call me weird, but I have always believed that it is perfectly possible to accept, support and love someone .... yes, unconditionally accept and love ...... and at the same time dislike or disapprove of something they might do or say. I can be flat out furious at someone, but that never changes my feelings toward them.
So if Darren was looking to his fans for a sort of love and acceptance, he only had to see what was right there. Nothing was wanted in return. Nothing was expected or asked. But I know it was there. Even when things seemed at their worst.
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well then you'd better call me weird too [img]smile.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by Dyan:
But then, call me weird, but I have always believed that it is perfectly possible to accept, support and love someone .... yes, unconditionally accept and love ...... and at the same time dislike or disapprove of something they might do or say. I can be flat out furious at someone, but that never changes my feelings toward them.
OK so I'm rather exhausted after reading through all this and can identify with many of the things said.
Sharon and in fact everyone, I love to read your posts and really appreciate that you share your thoughts so honestly.
Laurie and Janie..I most certainly understand *sigh*
DH is due home very shortly, once upon a time I would have been excited about that and tuning in to catch any news..not anymore.
I am however finally beginning to feel something special with parts of TTATS. I always seem to skip Popular now because it seems so out of the order and I still cannot get past the beginning of Void. Light is my current obsession
Dyan the unacceptable way your dismissal was handled was a turning point for me and something died at that time. I still believe and hope that one day they will apologise.
just testing...I know I replied and it says on the front page I did, but LOL where is it [img]confused.gif[/img]
I think the last time i felt certain there was a good possibility that Darren was lurking on a board was the SG BBS and since the split, that certainty has not returned. But even when i felt Darren was close to us online and quite interactive, that's not what kept me coming back, it was my fellow bbsers. You are right Nic in that it was easier to act positive back in the SG heyday because i think everyone on that board that posted regularly did so because they enjoyed most SG things. I also think that discussions of the albums didn't get the negative label back then, for whatever reasons.
I would just like to clarify the two instances that Nic refered to, just because i was closely involved with them. I am not sure what special treatment you are refering to with Caedn at a show, the closest i can think of is the time she was allowed inside the MuchMusic studio for one of Darren's appearances and that was a thank you for her work as a moderator. As for Dyan's mention on TV, that was actually the work of Caedn, myself and a number of other SG BBSers who arranged to ask Darren if he could show his feet to Dyan, it was all part of a bbs joke at the time about seeing Naked Hayes Feet LOL
I can't really comment on the change of mentioning fans by Darren because, to me, there has always been the same amount of support and jealousy towards fans who get mentioned.
I agree with what Dyan said, that the support was still there and many fans felt furthur alienated when they were told they weren't being supportive or that they weren't fans. I'm glad you got what i mean Dyan because you were still very supportive after your more stereotypical supportiveness faded...can i call it maybe a more fanatical supportiveness? The more blatant support i refer to is more, back in the day, when you would post things that came across as "don't say negative things about Darren, he can do no wrong" (which you may or may not have meant to say) and sometimes it would get my back up and i remember a few of the arguements i either watched or participated in LOL. I mean, there was a time when you and i didn't get along very well LOL Though the exact state of our mutual disagreements was in constant flux and wasn't the kind of dislike that we have seen in the past between "rival" fans and we got past it eventually, to my pleasure because i consider you a good online friend of mine. I think it's when you modified your support to something easier for me to deal with (not to say you changed because of me, you merely reacted to Spin like we all did) but it wasn't the kind of white charger, never admit defeat kind of support that seems to be prefered by the powers that be. You were willing to admit that Spin might not be a chart-topper, that maybe Sony wasn't promoting it correctly, you dared to suggest they were making mistakes.
The thing they don't get or don't care about is that you said those things because you cared. You are completely right that many of us, and yes i don't mind being used as an example, were really hurt because we were told we weren't supportive, we weren't fans because we wouldn't play the Darren defender role anymore. Our support was judged and dismissed, and often our hurt over the break up of SG seemed to be perceived as an attack on Darren. I know many people who felt they were not allowed to publically grieve the death of the band. And it was something people needed to grieve about. I had a few of my closest online friends call me in tears when they heard the news.
That hurt and bewilderment was often rudely dismissed by other fans, as questions about the break up were seen as being insulting when often people were just trying to get a clear picture what had happened because the break came out of nowhere for many people. Before that, what we were told, what we read in magazines mostly made sense as a whole. After the break was announced, that's when we started to realize just how little we really knew, how much we had assumed or just thought was the normal state of affairs. With the rug pulled out from under us, i know i started to question things i never thought i'd question or doubt. And it hurt me to even question, i didn't want to stop being on that easy street where everything was gold. But i was still supportive, otherwise i wouldn't have bothered to try to figure it all out and i wouldn't be here today *chuckle*
eep my posts seem to be getting longer @_@ anyway, just my perspective [img]redface.gif[/img]
Steen, I think we were (and are) all growing and finding our ways -- both individually and as an online community. But yes, there were some *clears throat* interesting times. LOL
To me, that's this is what counts. We can have problems, but then we can also give each other understanding and another chance ...... often without the need of a spoken agreement. And we can find compassion in our hearts when the chips are down.
Not just here, although I'm saying this here and so this certainly applies here too, but also on the Anti board, the SG board and ..... oh golly, but I can't remember other board ....... mega DH (???). And, of course, some of the bbs'ers.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 02, 2005 01:34 AM: Message edited by: Dyan ]</font>
[quote]Originally posted by sharonlk:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Laurina:
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]smile.gif[/img] I'd also like to apologise if anything I have ever said has been too forthright or has offended anyone just because I believe in the music, and yes the man, still. It was never my intention.Quote:
I think understanding is a 2 way street. For every person who wants to share that they aren't happy with something that was said or done, there are going to be people who are happy; and both sides have to understand one another. People don't have to agree, but it would be nice to see some more understanding.
All I am really saying is that it would be good to see more acceptance that every type of fan is welcome and just because people don't agree does not mean they can't speak out in regards to how they feel.
Honestly... this whole thing has tired me to the point of where I am miserable and feeling like I just don't give a f*** any longer. Sad when that happens because I used to get such joy from this fanbase.
<font color="#9966FF"><font size="1">[ February 28, 2005 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Laurina ]</font></font>
Sharon
<font color="#9966FF"><font size="1">[ March 01, 2005 05:23 AM: Message edited by: sharonlk ]</font></font></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sharon, I don't think you have ever offended anyone. Every post that I have read of yours seems to me anyways to be well thought out and very well said.
Laurie, it's sad to see your for the lack of a better word frustration about this. To see that the fanbase doesn't bring you that much joy anymore is not a good thing.
I'm trying to think what I could add to this conversation which has been great to read. One thing is that everything here has been discuss rationally and it hasn't been one of those topics turned into personal attacks that can happen if it was on (I feel bad in saying this) another board.
Sharon, nothing you have said has ever offended me, so you've nothing to apologise for.
Laurie, I feel pretty much the same way about things right now as you do. [img]graemlins/girl_hug.gif[/img]
Janie xx
Can someone clarify for me the whole bit about being told you were not supportive and that you weren't a good fan if you weren't supportive?
I miss a lot of things....but wasn't it always just a group of fans that said that?
LOL well obviously Darren or Leonie never said anything about not being a fan if you weren't supportive. But there has always been a lot of encouragement to support Darren, that he constantly thanks those who are supportive of him, it's obvious it's on his mind at least sometimes.
You are right that it was mostly other fans who made me at the very least feel that attitude of judgement, perhaps twisting Darren's genuine thankfulness into believing that we would upset him if we weren't supportive. And, following this logically, he has admitted he didn't feel supported in the past and it..er..supports that idea of "a good fan supports Darren" in appearance, even if that may not be the literal truth.
Remember, all we got in this game is appearances, so if something appears to be the case, it's often treated as true. A muddled mess, for certain *chuckle*
I think we were talking in a more general sense, Marilu.
But to reply to your question ..... There are many ways of getting a very clear message, and actually hearing or reading the words is only one. Actions count too.
*edit*
I was going to bed and thinking "Okay, let's be fair... WHAT actions." And the thing is that I could post several examples and, to be fair, every one of them could easily have a very innocent explanation. So I have to say ........
I don't know. I'm left with more question than answers these days. ALL that I really know is that my experience in life is that it is extremely rare to have a situation where one party is totally responsible and another party is totally uninvolved or not responsible.
Darren and his staff ARE directly involved with what happens in the fan base. Hell, we only have to look at who they choose to design and run the fan club website or the fact that Darren's management coordinates promo efforts with fans to see that. So if he gets the benefit of that involvement and esp if that involvement is intentional, then he also has to carry some of the responsiblity for the mistakes that occur.
I mean, isn't that how life works???? If you get involved in a situation and that situation goes bad, then you have to also look at your own actions too.
I'm not accusing him or saying that Darren or his staff or family are bad people. Believe it or not, I still believe that Darren is a good man trying to do the best that he can in life. But I get damned tired of feeling like it was all in my head and things weren't what they appeared each and every f'ing time.
I'm sorry, but the fans weren't in this alone.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 02, 2005 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Dyan ]</font>
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree it was in many ways a selfish time, because most of us were looking out for ourselves or maybe our close friends in such a turbulent time. I certainly remember everyone was basically in defensive mode at the time, not that i blame them because so was i *s* Darren may have looked for acceptance there but i don't know how fair it was to expect automatic acceptance of a break like that. It's like if you smack your dog and then expect to be able to pet him right afterwards. Are you going to get upset at the dog if he snarls at you and backs away?Quote:
Originally posted by mlue:
My memory of the splt was not that there was a lot of love and acceptance. I remember things being very divided. If I had been in Darren's shoes and had been hoping for acceptance and understanding, I don't think I would have felt it on the boards. From some fans..yes but it was a pretty ugly board for awhile there.
But I guess we all perceive things differently...who knows how he perceived things but I suspect things that happened then shaped the way things are today.
How could we be expected to be understanding when we had the two men we loved (not as in love, but love in the way you love those you don't know) telling us conflicting stories and we were awash in confusing rumours and halftruths?
Mlue no you are right there wasnt alot of love and acceptance it was a divided fanbase. Everybody was on the defensive and I include myself in that. Yes it may of been just a group that were putting that message out there but it seemed to be more than that. It was just a general feeling in the air. The way it went down. I guess we all see things differently.
I agree once again with all Dyan and Steen have said. Some things dont have to be written to be perceived as so. Perhaps we all made mistakes and I think we did. But yes as we have to own up so does DH and crew as they do have some say so in how things occur.
Kat
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well then you'd better call me weird too [img]smile.gif[/img] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Count me in on that - you only have to have husband/kids/parents to realise that one.Quote:
Originally posted by BarbT:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Dyan:
[qb]
But then, call me weird, but I have always believed that it is perfectly possible to accept, support and love someone .... yes, unconditionally accept and love ...... and at the same time dislike or disapprove of something they might do or say. I can be flat out furious at someone, but that never changes my feelings toward them.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 02, 2005 11:42 AM: Message edited by: sharonlk ]</font>
oh yeah, i didn't mean to imply i never made posts that were fanatical, i'm sure in the height of my involvement in the SG bbs i probably was just as protective of Darren in my own way lol And you aren't alone in being argumentative, i've certainly been told i never know when to shut up *g* As well, i've pissed off people for ages for doing too much sitting on the fence, according to them *chuckle* It's always been interesting times, that's how we live with flair! [img]wink.gif[/img]
You are right that second chances are what allow people and communities to grow and learn. By all means, call people on when they are making mistakes or being inappropriate but it shouldn't mean an automatic outcasting *s*
I think Dyan and Steen summed it all up nicely.
Its exactly how I felt at the time.
I mean people simply cant state whether we post here or the anti or anywhere that we havent been supportive fans of Darren and his music. We are still around and in this fickle business of music and being a fan thats a pretty damm good thing.
Re the meeting Darren and happiness encounters. I think most people are genuinely happy when other genuine fans get a moment with Darren. I think its when who is or isnt in favour is manipulated by other fans(but thats a whole other rant).
I think what gets forgotten in the whole breakup saga was there wasn't only Darren and us there was Daniel as well. He is like the forgotten person in it all. I think at times peoples defence of Daniel got taken as attacking Darren. There was a lot of hurt and anger and denial and depression and bargaining LOL that needed to be spoken about, but the general "vibe" I did get was that everyone was suppose to move forward with Darren cause at least we still had him. Yes we did have him, but the things he was saying weren't making any sense to me. Plus to me personally Spin was something to be questioned. Just because he irritated, annoyed, frustrated and pissed me off no end , doesnt mean I still didnt love the guy.
I guess just like Darren stepped back from fan interaction, fans stepped back from Darren interaction. Maybe it was all a natural evolution.
Kat
My memory of the splt was not that there was a lot of love and acceptance. I remember things being very divided. If I had been in Darren's shoes and had been hoping for acceptance and understanding, I don't think I would have felt it on the boards. From some fans..yes but it was a pretty ugly board for awhile there.
But I guess we all perceive things differently...who knows how he perceived things but I suspect things that happened then shaped the way things are today.
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Honestly?Quote:
Originally posted by Dyan:
If people hadn't cared about Darren, then they wouldn't have been so hurt by how things were handled. I just wish in retrospect that had been better understood by all involved at the time.
But then, call me weird, but I have always believed that it is perfectly possible to accept, support and love someone .... yes, unconditionally accept and love ...... and at the same time dislike or disapprove of something they might do or say. I can be flat out furious at someone, but that never changes my feelings toward them.
So if Darren was looking to his fans for a sort of love and acceptance, he only had to see what was right there. Nothing was wanted in return. Nothing was expected or asked. But I know it was there. Even when things seemed at their worst.
At the time of the split .. and for weeks afterwards... if you looked at the forums you would not have found love and acceptance.
Don't forget: everyone involved was very hurt and felt completely misunderstood.... absolutely nobody would have been able to keep the emotional distance to see where the other side was really coming from.
I think maybe they should have shut the forums down to keep us from writing down our thoughts on the split.
I'm sure things would be much better now.
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, that's what I meant.Quote:
Originally posted by sunhawk:
I would just like to clarify the two instances that Nic refered to, just because i was closely involved with them. I am not sure what special treatment you are refering to with Caedn at a show, the closest i can think of is the time she was allowed inside the MuchMusic studio for one of Darren's appearances and that was a thank you for her work as a moderator. As for Dyan's mention on TV, that was actually the work of Caedn, myself and a number of other SG BBSers who arranged to ask Darren if he could show his feet to Dyan, it was all part of a bbs joke at the time about seeing Naked Hayes Feet LOL
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">See, I can still remember when everyone was pleased to see another picture of someone who met Darren... and everyone was thrilled to see a friend's name mentioned in one of Leo's diary.Quote:
I can't really comment on the change of mentioning fans by Darren because, to me, there has always been the same amount of support and jealousy towards fans who get mentioned.
That all changed to the point where people wouldn't talk about their encounters anymore for fear of attacks.
This discussion has been amazingly interesting, because I feel that we (not just here "we collective", but as Dyan said on other boards/places "we everyone") have started down the road of a change for the better, with understanding.
I'm not saying that in the future of Darren's career and community, everything will be completley happy joy, but we seem to be acquiring the tools to deal with the tough stuff.
I can't see the change happening immediatly, but we have the seeds here of "old timers" digging through quite a few years of crap, and still coming out the other side - older, wiser, but still surviving.
And those are the emotional tools that allow us to deal with any new DH situation that crops up. Sure, we might flip our lids from time to time, but at least we have this understanding.
Amazing what a bit of time and perspective can achieve...
I guess that maybe it depends on what we want to see. Nic, everything you say has truth to it. So does what Marilu has said. However, what Steen, I and others say is also true.
The support was there. It still is. So is/was hurt and anger. I think the question is whether we (and Darren) are willing to allow for both truthes or only see the one that fits our point of view.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 02, 2005 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Dyan ]</font>
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 03, 2005 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Kattitude ]</font>
Mlue we would never boot you out. Your opinions and perspective are great. I have always found your posts here and on sony to come from a levelheaded perspective.YOu have never been "postive" just for the saje of it. You seem to take in what is said and thoughtfully put your perspective to it. As you said you saw the whole thing differently. Its always good to see that there may of been other ways to see it and other possibilities.
As you say everyones perspective of the event is different. We cant understand how DH felt at the time of the split. He may of had a heap of his own emotions to deal with thus couldnt deal with what was happening within the fanbase. I guess if we felt the way we felt.. we would have to try and understand how he felt.
It was a messy time and lots of things have and had to be sorted through all round. I agree with you on the fan treatment thing you may have a point there. Darrens interaction with the people I may not choose to like, may of been a completley different experience to mine. He can only go on what he and his people feel and say.
I guess even if he didnt feel the love it was there. The dissapointment we felt could only be measured by the love we had.
Kat
I agree Dyan...I think what everyone has said is true in some way because it is how they perceived things. I'm not so sure it is necessarily about what we want to see just how we see things.
I agree actions count but the problem is that everybody perceives actions differently. The recipient of any message and what they bring to hearing or reading that message is just as much a part of communication as the actual message. That is why everybody can hear or read or see the exact same things but all take away something different.
So...I guess what I'm trying to say is messages are perhaps never clear even if they seem clear to oneself.
I always feel a little out of place in these discussions because I think perhaps I sound like some fanatical fan who thinks Darren & company can do no wrong but that's not the case. I just see all of this different. It's not that I have some rose colored glasses of positivity going on because I don't and honestly those rose colored glasses drive me crazy. But I have watched many battles in these communities, participated in some, seen the complaints and it is not that I don't get where people are coming from...I do. I just see it all different.
When it comes to the "chosen" fans, I think he just sees them in a completely different perspective than perhaps other fans do. To me this is just normal. I don't think it makes him wrong. I don't think it means anybody else is wrong. I don't think it means he needs to see it in our light. It just means that everybody has had different experiences.
I think it happens in every day life. I may see a person one way because of things I know about them while someone else may see them completely different because of their own experiences. Even if I know all those other facts from the other person's experience, I still may not come to the same conclusions because of my own experiences. My own experiences may make me interpret all of the facts completely differently than someone else.
With Dyan's dismissal as mod....I agree...it was a cold chicken way to handle things. I also agree with Dyan that she was doomed from the start because she was too controversial and I think also just because of the timing. And I think that she did a lot of very positive things for the board in her stint as a mod.
But even in that, it doesn't send to me a message that there is an expectation that people must be 100% supportive or positive. That might be what some people take from it, but others may take something else. And what the message actually was intended to mean maybe completely different than what any of us got. I'm not sure anybody is wrong.
ok...so that's enough of a ramble...just trying to explain where I'm coming from.
There was a comment made about unconditional love and acceptance...and at the same point you can still be disappointed or disagree but that does not change how you feel.
I absolutely agree....unconditional love and acceptance does not mean that you agree with everything or they never disappoint. It means that all those things can't change how you feel.
lol...ok...I see this different too. Sorry you all are gonna boot me out of here.
While something may not change how you feel, it does not always follow that the recipient feels that love and acceptance. How many times do we all feel unloved or unaccepted when somebody is expressing their disappointment in us? It may not mean they don't love us but as the recipient of that disappointment, we may not feel loved.
Personal example...my husband is very critical (think of the song Boy...that's what it sounds like around our house a lot of the time). I am very concerned about the impact of this on my kids because I'm not sure as the recipients of that criticism they feel loved. Now I know for a fact he loves them and I think in their heads they know he loves them but do they feel loved....I don't think so. I think they feel discouraged.
In the case of fan/celebrity, I don't know that in that distant kind of relationship, it is possible for them to feel loved and accepted amidst the criticism even if they are.
Additionally...I question whether all of it is unconditional love and acceptance in the fan/celebrity scenario. I think perhaps there are actually a lot of expectations "required" for that love. Perhaps that is why it is not very fulfilling. People wouldn't leave if it was unconditional love.
Anyway...that's my take on that for what its worth.
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is absolutely true. Perhaps it's why I tend to focus more on a person's actions. Esp those actions over time. I think it's easy to show unconditional love and to feel loved when things are good ........ it's when things aren't so good that the true nature of things tends to show. Even then, I think the broader picture is important because emotions can color things in the heat of the moment.Quote:
Originally posted by mlue:
While something may not change how you feel, it does not always follow that the recipient feels that love and acceptance. How many times do we all feel unloved or unaccepted when somebody is expressing their disappointment in us? It may not mean they don't love us but as the recipient of that disappointment, we may not feel loved.
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">People don't leave. We get pissed. We do the cyber version of storming out and slamming the door behind. Often with a loud "I hate you, and I'm never coming back." But we never really leave. ....... haven't you noticed? LOLQuote:
Originally posted by mlue:
People wouldn't leave if it was unconditional love.
i don't have a problem with Darren giving certain fans special treatment in itself, it's bothered me in certain specific incidents but over all i tend to just treat it as the way things are, seeing as i've been friends with people who were actual friends with Darren or met him or were involved with Sony and such. It wouldn't be fair to tell them they shouldn't get treated differently or Darren shouldn't mention them because he can do whatever he likes really, there's never been a time i can think of where he bathed anyone in attention to the point of excess.
Well Sony decided to not make it clear why Dyan was being dismissed and i think we are aware that we are just speculating, that lack of clear message leaves a lot to be interpretted *chuckle*
You are right that often people don't know they are being loved, mostly because we aren't mindreaders and sometimes words/actions/etc don't reflect ones emotions or intentions. But what does our love really mean to Darren, at the end of the day? We are faceless for the most part, usually thought of as a group and we're unpredictable and probably frustrating sometimes, adorable sometimes, any number of emotions. From time to time we stand out as individuals, such as at the meet and greets, but we must blur in his mind when he's considering his fanbase as a whole. So if we don't make him think we love him or love him enough, how seriously does he take that? Maybe in the past he was more concerned with what we said and did but lately i've gotten a real feeling that he is keeping his distance and mostly staying out of things, and maybe i'm wrong about that.
<font size="3" face="Tempus sans ITC, Papyrus,Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think you're wrong Steen I agree with you and to an extent I've been doing a bit of the same.Quote:
Originally posted by sunhawk:
Maybe in the past he was more concerned with what we said and did but lately i've gotten a real feeling that he is keeping his distance and mostly staying out of things, and maybe i'm wrong about that.
I've spent some time reading threads elsewhere last night and today and I've noticed that although we are many and we share differing views we all are passionate about our own feelings. I'd like to think I've never personally attacked another fan just because of how they feel, what ticks me off and gets me going is someone else attacking someone in the smaller minority who takes a courageous step and tries to speak up. Ah it's just overwhelming, confusing and tiring and as Janie has said some time ago it's like someone has killed the joy. I've never experienced another artist that takes you on a ride from elation to misery and back again fairly often, but that is me and how my fan experience pans out depends on my frame of mind at time I'm online.
Oh and I think we should have a lottery to tip when the next d-zine will surface
[img]tongue.gif[/img]
LOL Dyan thats so true.
We stomp our feet we post our posts. We vent and vent. We just like to make sure we get it out there. But no we havent left at all.
It's easy to like someone when its all good and you feel all good towards them. It can be incredibly taxing at times to still love/like someone when they what they have done has pissed you, maddened you, frustrated you, annoyed you etc etc.
Kat
Kat
*chuckles*...I think the odds are to unpredictable to even try and gamble on the next d-zine surfacing.
replies just to get Mlue's last reply to show up. For some silly reason the new page doesn't load until there is more than 1 message and that has happened twice now [img]eek.gif[/img]
I don't get it. What is there about this fan base and that man that got under my skin??? I SWEAR, I'm a perfectly normal person with a firm grasp on reality. And yet ....... *sighs*
You guys won't understand what I'm saying in this ramble, and I realize that. But the thing is that I just deleted two posts on two different boards. Why? They were perfectly good posts, and I think that I have a point. Frankly, I think that I'm right. And they weren't causing trouble or fights. And yet somehow pointing out what seems obvious to me seemed also somehow the wrong thing to do.
It was about the recent articles in Australia about how Sony US didn't want to release the cd because it's supposedly too explicit and sexual. And the thing is that I posted and then it nagged me .......... somehow it seemed unfair for me to ...... I dunno how to explain this ...... maybe the word that I'm looking for is "counter". Maybe it's unfair of me to counter what other fans want or need to believe and what Darren's public relations team may want out in the media. Damn, that's not the right word either.
WHY do I even care??? It's not like my opinions change anyone's mind or that anyone (ie Darren's team or even him) could care less what I of all people think. And yet ............ damn if it didn't seem wrong on my part to be openly cyncial and blunt.
People need to believe something. And if that something helps to explain Darren's absence in the US or lets his fans feel better about the state of things (or even Darren himself; hell, I don't know what he needs to believe), then maybe I should let that be.
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 06, 2005 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Dyan ]</font>
I have been reading this thread for awhile now and as usual, everyone's articulate replies have given me lots to think about. It has been comforting to know that I'm not the only one who feels frustrated, but it is sad as well. I do agree with Laurie that if fans are geniunely 100% supportive I respect that ,and those fans that have concerns or issues are are just as valid. It seems like there can be so little respect for difference of opinion somtimes, though. People too easily can have their feelings and opinions invalidated just because someone else doesn't agree. I saw a thread on another board where someone was basically expressing concern for the way things were going, and others took it as not having faith in Darren. I didn't see it as not having faith and if you didn't care about someone's career, why would it matter what they they were doing or how well they were doing but what do I know? I just wish that we could all remember that we aren't going to see things the same way and that even you don't agree, respect is important. I remember when Dyan was removed as moderator from the Sony BBS and being on the board that night *sighs* I think that it was completely wrong the way it happend and the way it was handled. I can never forget how difficult things were when SG split. I couldn't agree more with Marilue how little love and acceptance there was.. I remember lots of powerful emotions, lots of hurt and blame on both sides. To be honest, the most difficult things for me at the time was seeing how other fans were reacting, to see how hurt and sad people were and all that blame. I was ceratinly upset and dissapointed, but I admit I was also more philosophical about the split then.. I was trying to focus on being grateful that SG ever exisisted in the first place, and I still feel that no one is to blame. Now, years after I find myself really beginning to start greiving over it..I have really been missing and longing for SG more than ever and as as stupid as it sounds, the main reason is that I want to go back to that time and feel the way I used to feel. I realize that not everything was perfect then either, but I felt much more connected, to Darren, to the fan base, everything. There seemed to be more openess and sharing. Now I don't really feel any joy. I'm just desperately trying to remember the positive things what brought me here in the first place because I'm very tempted to just leave it all behind especially the online part of being a fan (not that it matters I know) As I write this my Lauch Cast station is playing "Gunning Down Romance"..pretty appropriate
<font color="#9966FF" size="1">[ March 06, 2005 12:26 PM: Message edited by: little bird ]</font>
a good point mlue, i can certainly say there have been times when i felt completely "battle worn", usually not even because i am getting too emotionally involved, but just the act of intellectual expression itself and my desire to express myself correctly can be a strain, i seem to push myself harder when speaking about/within this fandom than any other i am a part of. Heck, most of the other fandoms i am a part of, i mostly stay quiet and don't even frequent any fan boards.
I think it's good to think about your own postings and your reasonings/motives but i don't think any of us should be too harsh with ourselves for feeling what we feel, shouldn't second-guess our every move. I guess it's that fine line between thoughtfulness and action.
It's funny, there is a song i just got my hands on by a band i love, Kula Shaker, and it seems strangely suitable for our current turn of topic ^_^ it's called "Drop in the Sea"
Questions unfolding like books and their pages
They just keep on turning for me
And I keep on asking,
Why every question will somehow relate back to me
Oh, I was told by a knight of the sun,
That wisdom could set people free
Be content in your questions
And may I just mention
You?re only a drop in the sea
Direction revolving
These questions I?m solving but nobody hears what I say
My answers unspoken of sweetest emotion,
Believe how I feel today
Just believe how you feel today
Oh, I was told by a knight of the sun,
That wisdom could set people free
Be content in your questions
And may I just mention
You?re only a drop in the sea
I don't think you need to worry Dyan, because i think at the end of the day, we are all just drops in the sea of Darren's fanbase ^_^
And, since i'm on the topic of Kula Shaker, i remembered a song i've always associated with my connection to the DH fandom, why i stay, why i am here, thought i might share the lyrics as well heh heh
I was sure I heard you singing
While my head was broken up
While my world in flames was rearranged
I'm still here.
In a blazing forest fire,
In a web of my own desires,
In a place that we are destined to return.
On an ocean I can't fathom,
In a truth I can't unravel,
I'm still here.
I'm still here.